Post by: Achim on January 24, 2010, 05:42:05 AM
MOVIE / DVD INFO:
(http://www.invelos.com/mpimages/88/883929077588f.jpg) Title: Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles: The Complete Second Season
Year: 2008
Rating: NR
Length: 964 Min.
Video: Widescreen 1.78:1
Audio: English: Dolby Digital 5.1
Subtitles: Danish, Dutch, Finnish, French, Japanese, Norwegian, Swedish
Stars:
1. Samson and Delilah
Lena Headey
Thomas Dekker
Summer Glau
Brian Austin Green
Plot:
The hunt is on in a season of powerful revelations, breathless pursuits and bravura effects. A mysterious 3-dot symbol (do UFOs provide a clue?), a girlfriend for John (is Cameron jealous?), a mysterious tech company ZeiraCorp (can it master the renegade software called Turk?) - Season 2's 5-disc action arsenal is locked, loaded, ready to amaze.
Extras:
Scene Access
Audio Commentary
Deleted Scenes
Featurettes
| # | Episode | Tom from here (http://www.dvdcollectorsonline.com/index.php/topic,626.msg103199.html#msg103199) | Matthias | Achim |
| 01 | Samson and Delilah |  | |  |
| 02 | Automatic for the People | | | |
| 03 | The Mousetrap | | | |
| 04 | Allison from Palmdale | | |  |
| 05 | Goodbye to All That | | | |
| 06 | The Tower Is Tall But the Fall Is Short | | | |
| 07 | Brothers of Nablus | | | |
| 08 | Mr. Ferguson Is Ill Today | | | |
| 09 | Complications | | | |
| 10 | Strange Things Happen at the One-Two Point | | | |
| 11 | Self Made Man | | | |
| 12 | Alpine Fields | | |  |
| 13 | Earthlings Welcome Here | | | |
| 14 | The Good Wound | | - | |
| 15 | Desert Cantos | | | |
| 16 | Some Must Watch, While Some Must Sleep | | | |
| 17 | Ourselves Alone | | | |
| 18 | Today Is the Day - Part 1 | | | |
| 19 | Today Is the Day - Part 2 | | | |
| 20 | To the Lighthouse | | | |
| 21 | Adam Raised a Cain | | | |
| 22 | Born to Run | | | |
Post by: Achim on January 25, 2010, 12:53:56 PM
Rocked by the Jeep explosion, Cameron reverts back to her original mission: Terminate John Connor. Will he be able to save himself?
My opinion:
After a rather brief summary of season 2 the episodes picks up exactly at the moment where season 1 ended. I highly enjoyed the first 5 minutes, where the dialog-free action on screen was edited to a song (which I liked, guess that helped). The main chunk of the episode is about the chase and the question if they will kill Cameron or be able to get her back on their side; and the related internal group conflict. Somewhere else a new character is introduced which puts that "Turk" storyline right back into gear.
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With a good amount of action this episode is a good starting point and makes me look forward for more. Summer obviously had fun being the bad guy (liked the scene where she fixes her face). Only problem I (still) have is, that Thomas Dekker somehow looks too old for the role. As some point they refer to him as a teenager which he is clearly not.
Rating:
Post by: Achim on January 26, 2010, 01:00:53 PM
A new friend infiltrates John’s social life while Sarah and Cameron infiltrate a nuclear power plant to find its connection to Skynet.
My opinion:
After the first episode opened with a bang the second pulls back a bit and goes in to explore some emotional issues. On the one hand there is mistrust, which obviously is a problematic thing for our little group. Then there is John's desire to be "normal", not having to have the burden of being the hope for humankind's future, which in turn causes conflict with Sarah. Sarah also has to deal with her knowledge of her future death by cancer, or does she...? All this is surrounded by a "problem of the week", which eventually provides some action towards the end.
Quite a solid episode which does some good character progression. Somehow I found Summer Glau's performance a little bit phoned in in this one :shrug:
Post by: Achim on January 27, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
It’s a slick game of cat-and-mouse when Cromartie kidnaps Charley’s wife. Can Cameron protect John like he protected her?
My comments:
A very emotional and suspenseful episode. I shortened the synopsis as it gives a great twist away, which at least I didn't see coming. The episode continues to explore the theme of the dangers that come with John trying to break free and Sarah trying to protect him by not giving him all the details.
I keep being troubled by the actor who plays Cromartie; not only does he not come across a threatening to me, I even find he looks a bit like Michael Biehn in the first movie.
Post by: Achim on January 27, 2010, 01:09:31 PM
Cameron goes missing after her glitch returns, sending a desperate John in search of her and revealing her true origin.
My comments:
This episode was all ober the place, loose threads dangling about rather incoherently. Sarah's storyline was incredibly boring, although Busy Philipps (Freaks and Geeks) kept me somewhat interested with her acting. Agent James Allison's path evolves ever so slightly. Cameron's section however kept me excited whenever it was on screen, The cover blurb is slightly off, John doesn't learn of her origins, but we do.
Best bits: When Cameron calls home and when the reality of the "flashbacks" is revealed.
Worst bit:
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(in average between the different story lines)
Post by: goodguy on January 27, 2010, 07:29:05 PM
I keep being troubled by the actor who plays Cromartie; not only does he not come across a threatening to me, I even find he looks a bit like Michael Biehn in the first movie.
That would be Garret Dillahunt. I first saw him on HBO's Deadwood, where he played two very different roles, then on John from Cincinnati (also HBO). I find him to be a very remarkable actor and I think he is perfect as Cromartie.
BTW, don't worry that you are doing this all alone. I will definitely join you, maybe even later today.
Post by: Critter on January 28, 2010, 01:31:50 AM
Post by: Achim on January 28, 2010, 05:13:55 AM
That would be Garret Dillahunt. I first saw him on HBO's Deadwood, where he played two very different roles, then on John from Cincinnati (also HBO). I find him to be a very remarkable actor and I think he is perfect as Cromartie.Is acting is fine. I was referring to the shot where he shows up behind Charley's wife after the phone call and I thought: He seems like a nice guy :slaphead:
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BTW, don't worry that you are doing this all alone. I will definitely join you, maybe even later today.I was beginning to worry :laugh: Thanks, it's definitely more fun to compare notes. I believe Rich had also shown interest, I hope he'll find time to join, too. Others...? I can easily expand the ratings table....
Post by: goodguy on January 28, 2010, 05:56:56 AM
Synopsis: See Achim's post.
My Rating:
Bad things first: The opening credits/intro (whatever you call it) has gotten even worse than in S1. Thankfully, they drop it after a few episodes. And: The final men's room sight gag was downright awful. IIRC, everyone on Friedman's team said so, but he insisted on it. A clear case where everyone was right and the creator was not.
With that out of the way: Like Achim, I really liked the opening slo-mo action sequence, accompanied by Shirley Manson's and Bear McCreary's version of the old traditional "Samson and Delilah". It is worth mentioning that not only did they take out the dialogue, but also most of the sound, save for some key bits that neatly merge with the song. It is a wonderful piece of editing and music, which elevates what otherwise could have been a so-so action scene to an entirely different level and IMHO even tops the use of the Johnny Cash song in the S1 finale.
Naturally, the entire episode can't be as high-concept as the opening, but a certain tone and theme is set, making something that essentially is a prolonged chase worth watching.
Summer Glau is great in evil and visibly damaged Terminator mode. She tacks on her face with a stapler, punches a speeding car out of its track and has time for a little T2-nod (Call to him). That's peanuts though compared to what she does when she is finally trapped and Jon is about to remove her chip. In an amazingly creepy and chilling scene she suddenly starts begging for her (machine) life like a frightened child.
As for Shirley Manson as corporate bitch? I was less than thrilled by her addition to the cast. Great song, lady, but the acting - not so much. Fortunately, it will get better in upcoming episodes.
Post by: Achim on January 28, 2010, 09:23:46 AM
Your second to last paragraph made me add the "Worst bit" to my review of episode 4.
Post by: goodguy on January 28, 2010, 07:59:03 PM
Good review, I agree to every point you made.
Your second to last paragraph made me add the "Worst bit" to my review of episode 4.
Huh? Not sure how you read my comment, but I loved that scene in 2x01. We are obviously to assume that she fakes it and Sarah hammers that point home later. But it is exactly that insistence that makes you wonder. As for 2x04, I thought it was the best episode of the first four. I agree that it is a little strange, including the "worst" moment you cited, but in its strangeness it made sense to me (if that makes sense ;)) and it reflects back nicely to a number of things in 2x01. I will get to it in more detail when I rewatch it.
Post by: Tom on January 28, 2010, 08:33:47 PM
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Post by: goodguy on January 29, 2010, 03:27:57 AM
Synopsis: See Achim's post.
My Rating:
I liked the episode much better this time around. Part of it probably is simply being in the right or wrong mood, part of it is knowing how certain things will play out.
For example, I wasn't too keen about the introduction of Riley in this episode, because there already was a mystery girl in S1 and nothing came out of it. Now, I could appreciate her more and really liked the scenes between John and her. BTW, I noticed that the story outline concerning Riley is almost literally spilled out by someone else:
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The entire plot of the dying guy busting in to deliver a message from the future, and the subsequent infiltration of the power plant made me roll my eyes so much, I missed the finer points of the episode. And than they ended the episode with a shot of our heroes staring at bloody (!) messages on a wall, outlining the future missions of the week. That really threw me off.
I still think the entire thing is somewhat ridiculous and the vague biblical allusion barely saves it. But it doesn't bother me so much any longer. And the supposedly suspenseful scenes of Sarah sneaking around in the power plant still drag, but in reality that's only a small part of the episode and I'm now actually thankful that they don't bore me with too much details about how they managed to get in.
As Achim rightly noted, the episode is much more about the character issues than the action, although some of these issues are a bit murky at this point, especially when it comes to John.
I can't agree about Glau phoning it in, though. Obviously something is different with Cameron, and she conveys that quite well. I especially liked her final scene with Sarah, the repeated (and perfectly reasonable) "I don't know" to Sarah questions culminating in the "Am I?" punch line.
Post by: Achim on January 29, 2010, 05:15:06 AM
Huh? Not sure how you read my comment, but I loved that scene in 2x01. We are obviously to assume that she fakes it and Sarah hammers that point home later. But it is exactly that insistence that makes you wonder.You're paragraph merely reminde me of the scene in episode for, where Cameron sheds a tear... I do entirely agree on the awesomeness of the scene in episode 1, when Cameron successfully fools John.
The entire plot of the dying guy busting in to deliver a message from the future, and the subsequent infiltration of the power plant made me roll my eyes so much, I missed the finer points of the episode. And than they ended the episode with a shot of our heroes staring at bloody (!) messages on a wall, outlining the future missions of the week. That really threw me off.´
I agree about the plot points but found the concept very interesting, that the guy was shot at in the future and the bullet entered the travel-pod with him, only actually reaching him when he reaches his destination (we see the bullet hitting him).
Post by: Tom on January 29, 2010, 06:09:46 PM
First of all guys, can we add comments to the spoiler tags if the spoiler is not (only) about the current but also future episodes? having seen the episodes under discussion I felt safe and ended up reading Tom's comment about Cameron's scene (not 100% if it's the tears or the one from episode 1, but either way...) and Matthias' comment about Riley. Maybe I am reading too much into them, but it may now see things in a different light. Thank you :)
Sorry. I thought it was obvious that I used the spoiler tag for your benefit. Especially with my comment after the tag. I will be more clear the next time. I hope I didn't spoil it too much for you.
Post by: goodguy on January 29, 2010, 07:19:27 PM
First of all guys, can we add comments to the spoiler tags if the spoiler is not (only) about the current but also future episodes?
Sorry, I thought it was obvious too that I talked about something I noticed upon rewatching in the current episode that concerns future ones.
BTW, shouldn't we agree that anything up to the reviewed episode is fair game and doesn't require a spoiler tag? While I left out some spoilerish things for 2x01 and 2x02, I'm not sure if it makes much sense in a dedicated thread. Just asking, I'm willing to do it either way.
Post by: Tom on January 29, 2010, 09:45:30 PM
BTW, shouldn't we agree that anything up to the reviewed episode is fair game and doesn't require a spoiler tag? While I left out some spoilerish things for 2x01 and 2x02, I'm not sure if it makes much sense in a dedicated thread. Just asking, I'm willing to do it either way.
I also understood it, that everything reviewed up to that point was fair game. But I am also willing to do it either way.
Post by: Achim on February 01, 2010, 05:20:12 AM
I'll admit that I should have realized you both have completed the series already and spoiler-tagged comments may "look ahead". So, I am "to blame" just the same, for not using my brain enough.
I always thought these threads are also for others, so I put any plot-specific stuff in the tags (this is why I clicked on yours, I thought it was hidden for others, not necessarily me). If we consider TV threads different to those for movies then I guess we can discuss everything openly and only have to spoilerize stuff that goes beyond the current episode.
Post by: Achim on February 01, 2010, 01:55:27 PM
Derek leads John on his first mission in defense of a military school cadet with a vital future role in the Resistance.
My comments:
I found the first half of the main plot quite boring. The setting in the military academy where John and Derek "did their thing" just didn't spark with me until the action started. Dealing with this week's problem was eventually resolved satisfyingly. John, for once allowed to lead the mission, was clearly enjoying the change of pace and in his new found position almost happily gave in to his fate.
The side plot, involving Sarah kidnapping a young boy to protect him from harm's way, was much more fun all the way through. The young actor gave a good performance and everything came together quite nicely between him and Lena Headey.
The other side plot with Agent James Ellison (Richard T. Jones good as always) was not advancing enough; lame excuse to show off the T-1000 (or is it a T-X...?) again.
(mainly for the Sarah story line)
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Post by: Tom on February 01, 2010, 06:11:22 PM
lame excuse to show off the T-1000 (or is it a T-X...?) again.
It's a T-1001 ;)
Post by: Achim on February 01, 2010, 06:18:46 PM
Post by: goodguy on February 02, 2010, 12:16:42 AM
Synopsis: See Achim's post.
My Rating:
Another episode that I enjoyed more upon rewatching. The opening is especially great, with Charlie & Michelle on the desert road, making stop at a gas station. No words exchanged between them for several minutes, just a little country song playing along, but the emotions between them are almost tangible. TSCC has a knack for these moody and minimalist scenes and it is the main reason I like this show. Also notable just how gorgeous it looks most of the time, in an earthy and completely unflashy way. All things that are pretty untypical for an action show about killer robots - no wonder it got cancelled.
From the early kidnapping climax, we get to a single short scene with highly pregnant Kacy, whom I forgot to mention in the last episode. I've never seen Busy Phillips before and initially I thought it was Mercedes McNab (Harmony on Buffy/Angel) playing the character. Anyway, she again is wonderful here. Oh, and Beast Wizard 7 is hilarious.
Do terminators get bored? Cameron finds the center of the house, determines the timeframe for a paint job, and is eager to kill at least a bird (Maybe later?). That sounds like funny robot, but is has such a wry sense of humor that it doesn't feel out of place. Also noteworthy the perfectly timed "I don't swim" exchange with John much later in the episode.
Charlie's phone call to John and Sarah is another one of many excellent scenes. He is so completely and heart-wrenchingly lost. Top performance by Dean Winters.
Sarah gets to do the reluctant hero thing, angry and tired, lashing out at everyone in frustration. That's a fine line to walk, but mostly it works, even when Michelle is the target (Frankly, I thought it'd be easier. I thought you'd be dead).
After Cromartie's setup succeeds the plot gets a bit messy. Taking an injured Michelle with them doesn't make much sense, nor does the designated meeting point for Cromartie and John. As much as the show succeeds in creating atmospheric and dramatic scenes, it often seems that less thinking went into the plot mechanics. I can live with that most of the time, but sometimes it becomes a little distracting.
The funeral scene at the end, while moving, would be a bit generic, if it weren't for the two cuts to the dinner table at the Connor house, once with the VO from the priest and then again, silent. Great stuff.
As for Weaver and Ellison: I like that they take their time and advance that part of the story slowly. And Shirley Manson already seems much better here than in the first episode. Or it could be Richard T. Jones, who can make almost everything work, reflecting positively on her.
Post by: Achim on February 02, 2010, 05:34:21 AM
Do terminators get bored? Cameron finds the center of the house, determines the timeframe for a paint job, and is eager to kill at least a bird (Maybe later?). That sounds like funny robot, but is has such a wry sense of humor that it doesn't feel out of place. Also noteworthy the perfectly timed "I don't swim" exchange with John much later in the episode.Oddly this didn't strike me as bad as tfhe tears in the other episode. I also enjoyed the humor coming from this. I think the explanation of this behavior (as it is differtfent from Season 1) is supposed to be the damaged chip.
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As for Weaver and Ellison: I like that they take their time and advance that part of the story slowly. And Shirley Manson already seems much better here than in the first episode. Or it could be Richard T. Jones, who can make almost everything work, reflecting positively on her.I think it's the latter. While I enjoy Jones' perfomrance a lot I personally think Manson comes across rather wooden (well, she is supposed to be a robot, but still...).
Post by: goodguy on February 02, 2010, 06:56:05 AM
Were you busy last week and will ctach up this week or should I slow down? I was planning to do a disc per week (according my Blu-ray set) but we can just do 2-3 episodes per week if that works better for you.
Yeah, I was a bit busy. I've catched up with 2x04 and I should manage 4 episodes per week - that's what's on the DVDs - I have no idea how it is spread out on Blu-ray.
Post by: goodguy on February 02, 2010, 06:57:38 AM
Synopsis: See Achim's post.
My Rating:
I agree with Achim that the Cameron part of the story is the most exciting and I can see why some people would find the side stories of Sarah & Kacy and Ellison & Weaver distracting. I didn't, though. Like Cameron's story, both are stories of their respective character's origin, although on a much smaller scale.
At the hospital, Sarah tells Kacy about John's birth in two different versions. The first is a lie, intended to comfort Kacy. But when she meets Kacy's boyfriend and finds out he is a cop, she switches to the truth, using it to manipulate Kacy. She was alone and she got through it and so can Kacy.
In the case of Weaver we also get a little piece of back-story. It is of course carefully selected to hold up against the investigation Ellison will soon undertake and to further draw him towards Weaver's agenda. What exactly that agenda is remains unclear, but it is interesting to note how Weaver rejects Ellison's notion of "evil" regarding the machines. Also interesting to note that she deliberate tells him a version of the helicopter crash story, which is not backed up by the official report - fully aware that he will find out. In the end, her manipulation succeeds and Ellison agrees to work for her.
During his investigation, Ellison visits his ex-wife twice (also working at the FBI) to gather information about Weaver. As small as these scenes are, especially the second one is really great. She: "I'm worried about you. I've never seen you in so much pain." Ellison: "Now, we both know that's not true." With someone like Richard T. Jones, that's all the dialogue you need to draw a rich picture of these characters.
Now I have waffled (as Jon likes to say) quite a bit and haven't even reached the main story. Blame Achim for that, I just couldn't let his comment slide.
Anyway, while all things mentioned above are pretty great, it is the main story of Cameron where this episode truly shines. It is an inspired and artistic work, with great cinematography and editing, a wonderful score and an amazing performance by Summer Glau.
The episode starts in the future, with a Cameron look-alike (Allison, as we learn later) running through a set of tunnels pursued by a terminator. She manages to get out through some metal door, but soon she is captured in some sort of net, trashing around in full panic mode.
Cut to a completely serene Cameron sitting in a car next to John. This is the first of a number of breathtaking cuts. My description barely does them any justice, but trust me, that is truly awesome stuff.
They stop and Jon sends Cameron off to do shopping and meet him half an hour later, which elicits a hilarious look from Cameron (if you recall the previous episode, you know why). Right from the beginning, the scene with Cameron in the supermarket has an eerie feeling to it, thanks to a shopping cart wheel, an apple and a reflecting balloon. Seriously. There is another short flashback to Allison trapped in the net, then we are in the supermarket again, where Cameron crashes the shopping cart into a pile of melons and than goes completely still.
Police arrives and tries to question Cameron who barely reacts and doesn't seem to remember anything. The questioning triggers more flashbacks, this time to Allison being interrogated by a terminator without the human disguise. All those intercuts are beautifully done. Cameron soon finds herself in a holding cell and meets Jody, a street kid also grabbed up by the police. While talking with Jody, Cameron starts by first mimicking her than slowly assuming the Allison persona.
As both get released from the police station, Jody takes Cameron under her wings (after she glimpsed the big wade of cash Cameron has). They have lunch, Jody gets attacked by a guy she apparently stole something from and Cameron, instead of ripping him to pieces, hands over her money to calm him down, much to Jody's dismay.
They take refuge in a shelter. During an apparently mandatory counselor session, more about Allison's past is revealed. There are again numerous intercuts between flashbacks of Allison's interrogation and the counselor talk. Cameron has now fully adapted the Allison persona and her crying while talking about her parents is a beautiful and sad moment that works perfectly for me, while Achim seems to think it is one of the worst scenes of the episode.
There is also a great bit where Allison mentions that her mother was a music teacher who listened to Chopin all day. You may recall the Chopin pieces featured in the cellar of 1x06 Dungeons and Dragons and while Cameron was dancing alone in her room at the end of 1x07 The Demon Hand.
But that scene still hasn't reached its high point yet. As Cameron-as-Allison finally has figured out she comes from Palmdale, the counselor convinces her to call her mother on the phone, who obviously is very surprised - and very pregnant: I don't have a daughter. Not yet. Very pretty name, though. Allison.
I don't want to recap the entire episode, so I stop here and only say that it even gets more amazing and complex. More flashbacks reveal more about the fate of Allison and cause Cameron to shift personalities and echo more bits and pieces from those memories.
In the end, of course, she reverts to normal(?)-Cameron, but the episode ends on a wonderfully eerie note.
This is one of the best episodes of the entire series, if not the best. Which is why it makes me kinda sad that Achim gave it his lowest rating yet.
Post by: Achim on February 02, 2010, 08:55:10 AM
They take refuge in a shelter. During an apparently mandatory counselor session, more about Allison's past is revealed. There are again numerous intercuts between flashbacks of Allison's interrogation and the counselor talk. Cameron has now fully adapted the Allison persona and her crying while talking about her parents is a beautiful and sad moment that works perfectly for me, while Achim seems to think it is one of the worst scenes of the episode.It's not the worst scene of the episode. I don't mind the robot to pretend crying ("I lknow now why you cry." from T2), I just don't buy into Skynet giving the machines tear glands just to be ever so better in infiltration. This is not "A.I." where the robot is supposed to learn emotions, here it's just about infiltrate, kill.
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one of the best episodes of the entire series, if not the best. Which is why it makes me kinda sad that Achim gave it his lowest rating yet.I guess I found there was too much of the other stroy lines dragging it down. Obviously your enthusiasm is concentrated on Cameron's path all the same, hardly pointing out Sarah's part. I also didn't have a problem with Ellison's story, it just was the smallest of all. Was I to rate Cameron's story alone the result would be different...
Post by: goodguy on February 02, 2010, 09:46:09 AM
I just don't buy into Skynet giving the machines tear glands just to be ever so better in infiltration. This is not "A.I." where the robot is supposed to learn emotions, here it's just about infiltrate, kill.
Well, Cameron is different. She also likes pancakes ;) Anyway, I'm usually able to go with the emotional flow of the story and that scene felt right to me. I found the plot problems in both 2x02 and 2x03 more distracting than the tear glands that maybe shouldn't be there. 2x04 seemed pretty flawless to me on the first viewing as well as upon rewatching.
Obviously your enthusiasm is concentrated on Cameron's path all the same, hardly pointing out Sarah's part.
Yep, I acknowledged that right from the beginning. But I thought the proportions were well balanced and I didn't find the small ones dragging at all. Maybe I should take a stop watch and measure them. :devil:
Post by: Achim on February 02, 2010, 01:48:13 PM
I agree that the tear thing is indeed rather minor. Now I wish it wouldn't have been so strange to me :shrug:; I could gave enjoyed those bits more.
Post by: goodguy on February 03, 2010, 07:59:31 AM
Synopsis: Derek leads John on his first mission in defense of a military school cadet with a vital future role in the Resistance.
My Rating:
That was a rather average episode with some good bits inbetween.
I liked the T1-nod. I really loved the macho scene of Derek and John loading up the truck with weapons and gear, changing first to a sudden shot of Cameron in the foreground, turning her head to look at John and John then looking at Sarah, who is watching from afar. Several shots establishing all three POVs and showing John between those two women. Great stuff.
I won't say anything on how easy Derek and John got into the military school, it just isn't worth it. Some of the scenes there worked pretty well, but overall it was far too simplistic bordering on cheesy. Likewise the scenes with Sarah and the kidnapped kid were hit and miss. The initial video game turning real as they get chased by the Triple-8 certainly was fun.
The Wizard of Oz must be the most used reference in US movies and TV shows. Still, they managed to pick some interesting parts as VO when Derek and John defeat the T-888. I remember complaining about the Sarah VO's in my initial S1 review, but upon rewatching I've gotten rather fond of them, to the point were I actually was starting to miss them in S2.
I also really loved the final scene between Derek and John: We all die for you. It's not about upsetting John as Achim suspects, but about encouraging John to become the man and leader who is worth that kind of sacrifice.
The slowly advancing story of Weaver and Ellison seems to confirm what could be already picked up from the coda of 2x02: Weaver seems to be interested in keeping the power plant operational. BTW, is there any way to make the scene with the plant manager in the alley any worse? Well, I suppose there is, but that was a new low after the men's room scene in 2x01.
Post by: Achim on February 03, 2010, 08:25:34 AM
Now, refresh my memory, what is a T1? Or did you mean there was a nod to the first film? :headscratch:
Yes, the way they just got into the academy like that was ridiculous to say the least :laugh:
I agree on the last sentence being really good ("We all die for you.") but still have issues with Derek telling the stroy. :shrug:
EDIT:
BTW, the Blu-rays mostly have 5 episodes per disc, but I'll settle for 4 to match your pacing...
Post by: goodguy on February 03, 2010, 08:38:29 AM
Now, refresh my memory, what is a T1? Or did you mean there was a nod to the first film? :headscratch:
Yes, I meant the first film and the terminator killing off all the Sarah Connors.
BTW, the Blu-rays mostly have 5 episodes per disc, but I'll settle for 4 to match your pacing...
Well, since you and I are apparently the only ones doing this, we can keep this varying around 4+ episodes per week. If one gets ahead more than 2 episodes he just waits for the other to catch up.
Post by: Achim on February 03, 2010, 12:30:28 PM
Yes, I meant the first film and the terminator killing off all the Sarah Connors.:slaphead: Of course.
...and another nod coming right up in episode 6, with the failed smile attempt of Weaver at the photo shoot.
Well, since you and I are apparently the only ones doing this, we can keep this varying around 4+ episodes per week. If one gets ahead more than 2 episodes he just waits for the other to catch up.Good plan! :thumbup:
Post by: Achim on February 03, 2010, 12:47:57 PM
The weight of their mission takes a toll on the Connors when they infiltrate the office of a family therapist who also has ties to ZeiraCorp.
My comments:
Great episode here, where the Connors and Weavers path cross, without them noticing each other.
The Connor's story is trying to understand the meaning of one of those names they found on a wall (am I supposed to know who wrote them there? because I don't). As usual the question is whether their target needs protection or must be taken out. They visit Dr. Sherman (Dorian Heapwood, who is a pleasure to watch) pretending to need his services as family consultant. Well, obviously it turns out that not much pretending is required as there are strong issues between Sarah and John. Interestingly they get to resolve one of those issues (is that flashback something from season 1 or is it made up for the purpose of this episode?) by proxy of the doctor without ever confronting each other. This is the strongest part of the episode, with lots of small excellent dialog and acting bits.
The second plot deals with (New) Weaver learning to fake being affectionate to the child she "adopted" so that the child doesn't feel alienated by its own mother. Some references to T-2 can be found here. I am beginning to warm up to Weaver's story line, hoping it will continue to go down the same path, which previously felt overly gratuitous to me. The child actress playing the daughter Savannah gets to shine here a little bit.
A third, smaller, thread deals with Derek meeting his old flame from the future and getting involved with her. I was suspicious of her right away and we are presented some evidence to be just that towards the end. Will be interesting to see how this develops.
I hope Ellison's thread pays of sufficiently later, because the way they slowly build up the story with him better don't lead to him simply getting killed of or other stupid stuff like that. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his bits immensely, I just hope it goes somewhere.
Can anyone tell me what the title of this episode refers to?
Post by: goodguy on February 03, 2010, 01:08:47 PM
6. The Tower Is Tall But The Fall Is Short
...
Can anyone tell me what the title of this episode refers to?
Well, Weaver's new project is called Babylon and I remember her building a big Lego tower for her daughter, so I assume it's a reference to the tower of Babel, which Men build to reach heaven and then God punished them for their hybris. On a more literal level, it could also refer to the suicide theme of the episode. 2nd best episode title after "Mr. Ferguson Is Ill Today".
BTW, I'm glad you liked it and I'm really looking forward to rewatch it, because I remember it as another contender for best of the series.
Post by: Achim on February 03, 2010, 01:48:41 PM
Well, Weaver's new project is called Babylon and I remember her building a big Lego tower for her daughter, so I assume it's a reference to the tower of Babel, which Men build to reach heaven and then God punished them for their hybris. On a more literal level, it could also refer to the suicide theme of the episode. 2nd best episode title after "Mr. Ferguson Is Ill Today".Thanks for the explanation. Yes, there was a Lego Tower involved. I found most of the other episode titles to more literate than this one, so I wondered what I was missing.
BTW, I'm glad you liked it and I'm really looking forward to rewatch it, because I remember it as another contender for best of the series.
BTW, I will comment on episode 7 below and then will only continue once you've caught up. Take your time.
Post by: Achim on February 03, 2010, 01:58:57 PM
The Connors’ identities are put in jeopardy when their house is robbed. Has Skynet found them already?
My comments:
Strange episode summary, as we are not really led to believe that at any moment in the episode. It's merely a threat that their personal stuff is out in the streets and that problem must be dealt with. The real threat in this episode comes from Cromartie, whose reappearance I highly enjoyed. I comes close to our heroes twice and both times suspense is built up nicely. Cameron has several funny one-liners when dealing with the shady elements of the city and it is shockingly funny how she deals with the robbers ("They knew where we live." :laugh:) Sarah at the same time as an unfittingly weak moment.
Ellison on the other end is blamed for murder, with a witness clearly identifying him. Weaver comes to help him. The lifting of this story line to a biblical level is a bit out whack and I am not sure what they are trying to say. It does however help to bring Ellison's story forward and bring him closer to his employer.
In overall it's a rather straight forward (in a good way), solid episode.
Post by: goodguy on February 04, 2010, 11:46:57 AM
Synopsis: The weight of their missions takes a toll on the Connors when they infiltrate the office of a family therapist who also has ties to ZeiraCorp.
My Rating:
As I already briefly noted, this is another outstanding episode. It is a little more conventional than 2x04 both in its visual style and in its storytelling, but it is great nonetheless. Since I don't seem to be able to get a regular review of this down to an acceptable size, I just post some random comments on various aspects of the episode.
The corny intro is gone and Sarah's VO is back for a change. The small bits at the beginning and end fit well with the episode.
The writers have finally gotten a handle on the Weaver character that matches Shirley Manson's acting abilities. As a result, she is really great here. Also, the child actress playing Savannah is a real find.
Sadly, Ellison didn't have much to do, except wondering about the basement.
The AI stuff in the basement however was beautifully done, with another great piece of music by McCreary. I'm not entirely sure though if it is new or if it already had been used for the Turk in S1.
.... names they found on a wall (am I supposed to know who wrote them there? because I don't).
That was dying future guy in 2x02. Shown for your convenience in the previouslies.
(is that flashback something from season 1 or is it made up for the purpose of this episode?)
That was a flashback to the killing of Sarkissian at the beginning of 2x01. It was left ambigous who exactly killed him. Jon and Sarah never talked about it, but everyone assumed it was Sarah (as does Derek here again). Of course, as we learn now, it wasn't.
All of the sessions with Dr. Sherman were great, but especially those with John. Interestingly both T-Weaver and Cameron recognized that someone needed help, but Sarah didn't until she later listens to the surveillance tapes.
The suicide theme came a bit out of left field for me with regards to John. But I suppose it was introduced more for the benefit of Derek and the back-story with Jesse. Also, they picked it up nicely when Cameron looked at the self-destructed chip during the end montage.
Apropos Jesse. I wasn't suspicious at all during the first scene between Derek and Jesse, well at least not on first viewing. And despite knowing that she has some hidden agenda as evident by the photos, that scene still gets to me and I like to think that her battle fatigue is at least partially true. Stephanie Jacobson is truly amazing here.
All in all a very gripping and dramatic episode with a highly original terminator fight as bonus.
Post by: Achim on February 05, 2010, 05:28:48 AM
The writers have finally gotten a handle on the Weaver character that matches Shirley Manson's acting abilities. As a result, she is really great here. Also, the child actress playing Savannah is a real find.That is exactly what I was trying to say in my comments! That is why I found her to be "wooden" before (not exactly sure if I wrote that a<nd too lazy to re-read) and now the writers found how to utilize that.
Post by: goodguy on February 05, 2010, 12:00:13 PM
Synopsis: The Connors’ identities are put in jeopardy when their house is robbed. Has Skynet found them already?
My Rating:
I pretty much agree with Achim's comments and don't have a lot to add.
The real threat in this episode comes from Cromartie, whose reappearance I highly enjoyed.
Well, SkyNet did send Cromartie back to find and kill John Connor, so the synopsis isn't entirely wrong. I too enjoyed him being back in the game and especially those scenes with Jody were great. And nobody does sinister like Dillahunt does.
I also liked that Riley was back, even if she causes John to do foolish things.
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...and it is shockingly funny how she [Cameron] deals with the robbers...
In retrospect, the Nablus story was a nice tip-off of what was going to happen.
Sarah at the same time as an unfittingly weak moment.
I wouldn't call it unfitting, on the contrary. As badass as she sometimes appears, she never has killed anyone, not even Dyson in T2. In fact, she is the only one who hasn't. John killed Sarkissian, Derek killed at least Andy Goode, even Jesse just killed Moishe (and in that was as ruthless as Cameron).
Ellison ... The lifting of this story line to a biblical level is a bit out whack and I am not sure what they are trying to say.
I'm not sure either. For Ellison, drawing on the bible is certainly not out of character and the comments from both Cromartie (SkyNet does not believe in you like I do) and Weaver (What good is faith if we don't use it) seem to enforce that. That he compares himself to Job and believes he is tested by God might be his hubris and actually lead him astray.
Post by: Achim on February 07, 2010, 07:16:06 AM
Very good point there. I just figured her to be smarted than that. Well, at least she'll very soon enough how foolish she was...Sarah at the same time as an unfittingly weak moment.I wouldn't call it unfitting, on the contrary. As badass as she sometimes appears, she never has killed anyone, not even Dyson in T2. In fact, she is the only one who hasn't. John killed Sarkissian, Derek killed at least Andy Goode, even Jesse just killed Moishe (and in that was as ruthless as Cameron).
Post by: Achim on February 07, 2010, 07:26:49 AM
John and Riley’s getaway to Mexico has unforeseen consequences that bring the entire group south of the border and Sarah face-to-face with Ellison.
My comments:
At first I was wondering why the writer made John do so many foolish things. He id it in earlier episodes and had since seemed to have learnt. Well, if he wasn't doing things like running away without telling anyone, there wouldn't be any exciting plots :laugh:
Matthias has pointed out before it's his favorite and I can at least confirm from my side that it's the best episode yet. I always enjoy the "bits and pieces" approach to tell a story, presenting us with segments, each following another person, that slightly overlap. This way important information can occasionally be left out only to be revealed later on. Kudos to the writer team to pulling it off very effectively :thumbup:
We also get great action by Thomas Dekker (especially the first half) and Garrett Dillahunt as Cromartie is very menacing here.
Only now, two or three episodes after the incident I realize that Ellison's role in all this must be bigger than we can imagine so far. Triggered by his question to Sarah about his role I noticed that Skynet felt it was a good idea to actual model a Terminator after him. Well, or something. Looking forward to see more of him.
Post by: Achim on February 07, 2010, 09:03:50 AM
Fever dreams convince Sarah that a “three-dot” symbol will lead her to Skynet. Derek wonders if they’ve changed the future.
My comments:
After the fast paced episode 8 is=t was quite reasonable to have things pulled back a bit for episode 9, getting some more character and story development done. There is basically three threads running, one for Sarah (boring), one for Derek (intense) and one for Ellison (short jaw-dropping).
Sarah is having some sort of recurring nightmare involving Cromartie and three dots that even has her sleepwalking. I don't really understand what they were trying to do with this and it had me mostly bored. It was nice to have Dorian Harewood as Dr. Sherman back though.
Derek's story I found very exciting. The slow build up and twists and turns that bring us to the revelation at the end. Two really interesting things are achieved in this episode, one being the discussion about changing the future
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And then there is Ellison, who gives us a big jaw-dropping moment at the end.
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Post by: goodguy on February 08, 2010, 01:15:12 AM
Synopsis: John and Riley's getaway to Mexico has unforeseen consequences that bring the entire group south of the border and Sarah face-to-face with Ellison.
My Rating:
Matthias has pointed out before it's his favorite and I can at least confirm from my side that it's the best episode yet.
I was only referring to the title, not the episode itself, although, as evident from my rating, I do consider it another excellent episode. As for the title: I didn't catch on to it right from the start. I found it oddly fitting to describe Cromartie's demise and I remember having that sentence stuck in my head for a while like a piece of music. But it wasn't until I rewatched S1 that I noticed it is the very first line of Cromartie in the pilot, when he appeared as a substitute teacher (and was played by another actor). Which fits nicely with the way the characters in this episode try to replace something they have lost.
Well, if he wasn't doing things like running away without telling anyone, there wouldn't be any exciting plots
More importantly, he would just be dead. Both Sarah and Cameron don't want John to be with Riley. Both think he is in his room, sleeping in. Both are the ones that allowed Cromartie to pick up the trail. But as Cromartie arrives at the house, John is gone. With Riley.
I always enjoy the "bits and pieces" approach to tell a story, presenting us with segments, each following another person, that slightly overlap. This way important information can occasionally be left out only to be revealed later on. Kudos to the writer team to pulling it off very effectively
I admit that on first viewing I dismissed it as too gimmicky, but it really isn't. Only in the case of Ellison's sudden appearance it is played for surprise, and even then not exclusively. More important seems to be the overlap and repetition of certain key bits and how it enhances the almost lyrical feeling the dialogue often has. And, of course, the different story segments emphasize how fractured team Connor has become.
As it all comes together in Cromartie's story, Ellison does lead him to the Connors, but on his own terms, because "all things are possible to him who believes." The shootout in a Mexican church uses bold Christ imagery, and a rather short version of another traditional song (La Llorona - The Weeping Woman) again takes out the sound of the action scene until Cameron finally brings Cromartie down. Cameron looks equally sad and curious while doing it - she certainly seems to think more about the terminators she kills than about the humans, echoing similar shots of her in 2x05 and 2x06.
Only now, two or three episodes after the incident I realize that Ellison's role in all this must be bigger than we can imagine so far. Triggered by his question to Sarah about his role...
One of the bits that gets repeated during the segments are Ellison's words to Sarah when he opens the trunk: "Sarah Connor? James Ellison. I *need* you to come with me." But when they talk during Cromartie's burial, Sarah refuses to give him the guidance he so desperately seeks. As he walks away, he will undoubtedly return to Weaver. And with the ominous music cue accompanying it and the way the takedown of Cromartie was shown, one can be pretty sure what will happen. However, Cromartie's chip definitely is destroyed.
Post by: goodguy on February 08, 2010, 09:37:31 PM
Synopsis: Fever dreams convince Sarah that a "three-dot" symbol will lead her to Skynet. Derek wonders if they've changed the future.
My Rating:
At this point of the series, TSCC is certainly on a roll, one excellent episode after another. Once again I cannot agree with Achim that the parts involving Sarah were boring - their introspective and metaphoric quality nicely balanced the intense stuff going on with Derek. I wonder how Achim will think about the Sarah plot in the next episode, because that is the first time *I* will find it to be pretty weak.
With her breakdown at the end of 2x08, Sarah and John have actually become closer again and that continues here as they talk more openly with each other. Sarah turning over the turtle on the roadside is a Blade Runner reference (the empathy test to distinguish between adroids and humans), nicely used here to characterize her and to provide more food for thought for the always-curious Cameron, who will mimic her later on with great effect.
Sarah's dreams did make sense to me on first viewing, they do so even more when considering the whole series, but I will leave that part out. Sarah's first dream is the least transparent, but the liquid metal cactuses seem to point towards Weaver, who is yet an unknown to Sarah. It is safe to assume that the Weaver and Connor story lines will converge at one point in the series, however that may play out. Sarah's second dream is the most obvious, her humanity prompted her to safe the turtle and the kid in the bowling alley, which played right into Cromartie's hands. She knows what to do, but just can't do it, she sees herself as her own worst enemy, pointing a gun at her reflection in the window. John, however, doesn't think so. The third dream brings her back to reality, there isn't really anything she can get from talking to Dr. Sherman, considering the secrets she has to keep from him.
I didn't talk about Cameron and John in the previous episode (who had a great scene together that only at the surface seemed slightly creepy). Here they are great together again as they drive back to Mexico and then go after Ellison.
Ellison didn't surprise me. Based on the ending of 2x08 and given what he knows, his progression here seemed pretty straightforward to me.
The main story however is of Derek and Jesse and Charles Fisher, who collaborated with the machines (the bits were the "grays" are expositioned are the only slightly clunky parts in the episode). Robert Shiff (Toby from West Wing) as Charles Fisher was amazing and bringing in Adam Bush (robot expert Warren from Buffy) as the younger Fisher was an inspired casting choice. I agree with Achim that we can see that Jesse really cares for Derek, but there also was a strange vibe coming from her. One can attribute it to being completely rattled by discovering Fisher, but her caressing Derek while saying "You need to beat the hell out of him." was a bit too NBK (or whatever) for me.
While talking about 2x07, I said that Jesse was as ruthless as Cameron when killing Moishe, but here it is Derek again who has no moral scruples at all and would have killed the younger Fisher preemptively just as he did with Andy Goode. Jesse has no qualms killing people, but seems not be willing to go that far.
Time travel makes my head hurt, so I usually go with whatever spin is given to it. The "different futures" are an interesting turn, especially as it also means that Derek having changed the future means that he may have created the events that Jesse remembers, but he doesn't. The counterpoint to that is young Fisher. As Ellison's VO drones on to justify his choice (we can't allow history to repeat itself), we see young Fisher thrown in a cell, ensuring he is available to the machines on Judgment Day.
Post by: Achim on February 09, 2010, 05:36:36 AM
I was only referring to the title, not the episode itself, although, as evident from my rating, I do consider it another excellent episode. As for the title: I didn't catch on to it right from the start. I found it oddly fitting to describe Cromartie's demise and I remember having that sentence stuck in my head for a while like a piece of music. But it wasn't until I rewatched S1 that I noticed it is the very first line of Cromartie in the pilot, when he appeared as a substitute teacher (and was played by another actor). Which fits nicely with the way the characters in this episode try to replace something they have lost.Excellent! :thumbup:
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More importantly, he would just be dead.Well, yeah, there is that. :laugh:
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One of the bits that gets repeated during the segments are Ellison's words to Sarah when he opens the trunk: "Sarah Connor? James Ellison. I *need* you to come with me." But when they talk during Cromartie's burial, Sarah refuses to give him the guidance he so desperately seeks. As he walks away, he will undoubtedly return to Weaver. And with the ominous music cue accompanying it and the way the takedown of Cromartie was shown, one can be pretty sure what will happen. However, Cromartie's chip definitely is destroyed.:hmmmm: The way you put it makes one think that Sarah is partly responsible too, since she could have brought Ellisonm on her side and sadly refused to do so.
I don't think Weaver needs the chip, at least that's what I felt. She just needs the body to advance her technology there.
Sarah's dreams did make sense to me on first viewing, they do so even more when considering the whole series, but I will leave that part out.Thanks for the explanation. At least it makes more sense now and maybe it will be regarded differently duiring a future viewing.
I agree on Jesse. As I said (or at least meant), while her affection for Derek is obvious she surely comes across rather creepy...
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The counterpoint to that is young Fisher. As Ellison's VO drones on to justify his choice (we can't allow history to repeat itself), we see young Fisher thrown in a cell, ensuring he is available to the machines on Judgment Day.:slaphead: How could I have missed that :stars:
Post by: goodguy on February 09, 2010, 04:28:17 PM
:hmmmm: The way you put it makes one think that Sarah is partly responsible too, since she could have brought Ellisonm on her side and sadly refused to do so.
Strictly spoken, yes. But aside from the fact that Sarah knows too little about Ellison to trust him, she also remembers what happened to other people that got dragged into her war, like Charlie and his wife.
The thing with Ellison is that he is a believer, that God has a plan for him, that he has a "role" in all this. Sarah gives him nothing in that regard while Weaver always has fostered that belief.
I don't think Weaver needs the chip, at least that's what I felt. She just needs the body to advance her technology there.
Of course. She already has the Turk. I'm keeping in line with what was shown in the episode. That Ellison would dig up Cromartie was hinted at pretty strongly, but at the same time the episode left no doubt about the destruction of the chip.
Thanks for the explanation.
You're welcome. But shouldn't that be "Thank you for explaining" ? :laugh:
QuoteThe counterpoint to that is young Fisher. As Ellison's VO drones on to justify his choice (we can't allow history to repeat itself), we see young Fisher thrown in a cell, ensuring he is available to the machines on Judgment Day.:slaphead: How could I have missed that :stars:
On second thought, I may have misread that. When we see young Fisher, it doesn't look so much like he is in a prison cell, but in a psych ward. Which still serves as a couterpoint to Ellison's VO, but only because it is the same thing that happened to Sarah (and Dr. Silberman). I admit, I like my first idea better, because it makes the "different futures" more ambigous, but it seems that wasn't what they were going for.
Post by: Achim on February 09, 2010, 06:07:01 PM
On second thought, I may have misread that. When we see young Fisher, it doesn't look so much like he is in a prison cell, but in a psych ward. Which still serves as a couterpoint to Ellison's VO, but only because it is the same thing that happened to Sarah (and Dr. Silberman). I admit, I like my first idea better, because it makes the "different futures" more ambigous, but it seems that wasn't what they were going for.Now, that you mention this, this I remember. Him telling some people asking questions what had happened to him, realizing at the same time that he was in big trouble for such outrageous story.
Post by: goodguy on February 09, 2010, 10:59:01 PM
Synopsis: The three-dot symbol leads Sarah to a company with a surprising connection to Andy Goode's Turk. Riley becomes a liability to John.
My Rating:
This is the first time I'm ahead. Yay me!!
As usual I will talk about the events in the episode fairly open and without spoiler tags. Achim, if you haven't seen the episode yet, you may want to postpone reading this.
I really wish I could give another 5-star rating here, because there were so many great things in this episode. The Riley story was terrific. The Ellison story intriguing. There were big reveals. It was all wonderfully done. But. The main story about Sarah and Dakara systems had such a weak run-of-the-mill, done-by-the-numbers plot; it unfortunately drags the whole thing down a notch.
I initially thought the three-dot thingie was a distraction, or even a meta joke, like, solve the problem, connect the dots. But as everyone kept insisting it was just that, I became less sure. BTW, nice that John continues to be supportive towards Sarah, even if he has his doubts.
So Sarah and Cameron play dress up as potential investors, there are business meetings and business dinners and small talks and a chip which is a fake chip and the Connors get conned and... yawn. Still, there are a few nice bits in-between, such as Cameron's sudden remark about the hair, the colors of Sarah and Cameron's outfit matching the black and white of the Go pieces, or Cameron's gun posing during the raid on the impostors (doing nothing while Sarah and Derek beat up the guys).
That the plot is so boring is even more of a shame, because Lena Hadey is great showing both Sarah's longing for a past were everything was normal and her growing obsession with the three dots. When she almost loses it and beats the hell out of Akagi, it is a very intense scene. Later on, she looks in the mirror and discovers three small splashes of blood on her face. Is she going crazy? As she smashes the mirror in frustration, the camera pans down to the shards in the sink, reflecting two images of Sarah. Wonderful shot.
Derek finally discovers that Jesse has an agenda of her own. What she tells about Future John might be exaggerated, but we know from S1 that he was heavily shielded. Derek decides to trust her, but we know that she still keeps secrets. How ironic that later it is Derek who tells Sarah she got played.
And Riley. Leven Rambin took the character to a whole new level in this episode. The scene as John visits her and she talks about the bear/fish poster completely blew me away. Then, in another terrific scene, we find out she is connected to Jesse, who once more becomes creepy as hell in the way she manipulates Riley. And as Riley returns to her foster home, she finally has her breakdown too and channels T2-Sarah in her you're-all-gonna-die outburst. All this remains beyond powerful, even on rewatching and without being floored by the surprises.
Meanwhile, Ellison finds out that Weaver's AI accidentally caused the death of Dr. Sherman during a blackout. Weaver encourages him to investigate. And while the writers managed to make a con plot boring, they also manage to make Ellison "interrogating" the AI a very intriguing scene. As he comes to the conclusion that the AI needs to be taught ethics, Weaver again takes him up on it. It is still hard to say what Weaver's agenda is, but her elevator talk with Ellison surely provided some interesting clues. But what he sees when both go to the AI lab again will probably give him another nightmare.
Post by: Achim on February 10, 2010, 05:18:35 AM
Achim, if you haven't seen the episode yet, you may want to postpone reading this.Trust me, I will :) In fact, I only opened the thread accidentally and then the red text caught my eye.
I will catch up again from tomorrow. next week I am off (Chinese New Year), so will be ahead of you most of the time again.
Post by: Achim on February 11, 2010, 12:49:15 PM
The three-dot symbol leads Sarah to a company with a surprising connection to Andy Goode's Turk. Riley becomes a liability to John.
My comments:
Awesome episode all the way through. Other than Matthias I even enjoyed the Sarah plot sufficiently. There was lots of stuff going on and even if there was comparably little action I enjoyed all parts. There were many little bits which were especially fun to observe (Matthias mentioned them all:
I found it was nicely left somewhat ambiguous whether the 3 dots had a deeper meaning or not. While Derek makes a good point that they are probably not (he doesn't say this, but they might have been by the guy writing all the stuff when he got exhausted from writing and used three fingers to lean himself on the wall) but then I thought that Akagi (the guy in Sarah's story line who scams her) pointed out that the three dots are "just a logo" once too many (then again, if that had a meaning, he probably wouldn't know at that point...).
Also Riley's and Jesse's suddenly being revealed as being intertwined kept things interesting on that side. It seemed to be going on for a while already opened up a few new mysteries to be uncovered later.
Interesting how Matthias talked about all major plot points but then left out the reveal in the last shot. :laugh: Things are certainly shaping up for Weaver and from all we can see the story of Sarah getting ripped off may have been a red herring after all.
Post by: Achim on February 11, 2010, 01:48:57 PM
Cameron never sleeps, so what does she do at night? Chase a T-888 that?s been lost in time.
My comments:
This episode concentrates entirely on Cameron investigating the past. We get a little of John and nothing of anyone else. Cameron has apparently paid regularly visits to the local library, where she bribed the night watch (with donuts) to let her in. She uses her time there to find someone in the past and looks for the connection to the future.
I mostly enjoys crime films where the story slowly unravels to eventually reveal the big picture and on occasion give as a :slaphead: moment. No exception here. There is quite a bit witty dialog (two of Cameron's bon mots made me laugh out loud) and the detective work runs along at a steady pace. But here's the rub, which happens often with this kind of stories: the "timing" is off. By that I mean that the entire investigation (plus Cameron's "problem solving at the end) happens in one single night. Going through records, finding film clips, having conversations, connecting the dots (no pun intended) and all they need is a couple of hours...? Fail (this is where I deduct one notch in the rating). Another problem is that I felt lots of lag, where I thought the story could speed up a bit and move along; luckily those are moments never lasted very long.
John's story is merely a side note and shows him getting closer to Riley. I did not like this section at all and him suddenly bursting put and almost beating the crap out of a guy who is already down felt out of place to me.
Post by: Achim on February 12, 2010, 12:01:26 PM
Sarah and Cameron work to save a family on the list with a connection to Derek and Jesse in the future.
My comments:
I did not connect with this episode at all. I don't like "constructed" plots and this one seemed to be just that. I mean, we have been following Sarah for quite a while now and suddenly they say "oh, yes, well, 6 months ago this happened", so they create a past event to explain the proceedings of the current episode. The episode also seemed entirely on it's own and I get the feeling that except the scene that was only talked before, when Derek and Jesse met, nothing really relates to the main plot. Another thing that bugged me is that first they to spoil the suspense by giving certain information "accidentally" too early (who is the terminator after...?) just to give us an entire different solution later; it felt cheap.
No John, no Ellison, little of Cameron and Sarah. Mainly Derek just doesn't seem the right thing for this series :shrug:
(my lowest rating yet)
Post by: goodguy on February 12, 2010, 05:23:06 PM
(my lowest rating yet)
Ouch. I'm pretty sure I will disagree when I catch up later today.
BTW, there is an error in the rating table. My rating for 2x10 was
, not .
Post by: Achim on February 12, 2010, 06:08:27 PM
Ouch. I'm pretty sure I will disagree when I catch up later today.I could imagine. Looking forward to read your thoughts.
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BTW, there is an error in the rating table. My rating for 2x10 wasCorrected.
(I was hoping you would double-check that table.)
Post by: goodguy on February 13, 2010, 03:30:17 AM
Synopsis: Cameron never sleeps, so what does she do at night? Chase a T-888 that's been lost in time.
My Rating:
Toni Graphia is one of the finest writers on this show and here she is responsible for another gem. The seasonal story arc is pretty much abandoned in what seems to be a stand-alone episode, but is it really? Sure, on the surface it's about a T-888 lost in the '20s. It's also a night in the life of Cameron. But the really beautiful thing is how the episode picks up not so much the plot, but the themes developed in the series so far.
Why does Cameron go to the library? It's not so much information she seeks, but knowledge. That's why she befriends Eric, the night librarian (excellent, Billy Lush), that's why she reads Shakespeare. She wants to understand humans. She wants to understand John. They don't make sense to her.
Upon the photograph of the T-888 she stumbles by accident. At first, he doesn't make sense to her either. But he is a machine. Machines are predictable, easy to figure out. And that, Achim, is exactly why it takes her only a night to piece together the clues.
But humans? They turn over turtles, so she did turn over Ellison. But when Eric falls out of his chair, he obviously doesn't want her help. And Cameron observes him, curious, confused. But not attached. For her, everything works out fine: the robbery, Othello, Eric being replaced by another night guard (what a great ending).
There are so many little things in this episode to marvel at. They are what creates the rich texture of the show, what makes it special. Like the question about suicide in the bathroom, calling back that girl in S1 who killed herself. Like the bomb comment, linking back to her talk about Sarah's cancer. Like the three dots that suddenly appear as star positions in a flashback, making them part of the T-888 investigation that essentially is just a McGuffin.
I also really liked John and Riley. Again very little happens, but the beauty is in the details and how it is all connected. Like John beating up the guy at the party and Sarah beating up Akagi. Like Riley playing little games with John at the party and a big game to further Jesse's agenda. Like John's "I shouldn't be around people" echoes what Jesse said about Future John. Like Riley's "you're a weirdo, you might get me" complements the story of Cameron and Eric. And, and, and.
I'm very glad the show doesn't speed up and move along, as Achim said. It wouldn't be the show I've come to admire.
Post by: Achim on February 14, 2010, 01:18:22 PM
Upon the photograph of the T-888 she stumbles by accident. At first, he doesn't make sense to her either. But he is a machine. Machines are predictable, easy to figure out. And that, Achim, is exactly why it takes her only a night to piece together the clues.Yeah, piecing them together so quick I get, but the physical procedure of finding them. While she may immediately know what she is looking for, but they need to find it...
Quote
I'm very glad the show doesn't speed up and move along, as Achim said. It wouldn't be the show I've come to admire.Maybe my comment sounded bigger than how I meant it. I did point out that those moments never lasted very long for a reason. Almost like in Lost, where nothing happens for so long until it almost gets unbearable and then they throw in loads of excitement. Almost in a good way ;) (the important key for such design always is, to know when the viewers mind is about to wander off..., they clearly did)
Post by: Achim on February 14, 2010, 01:33:01 PM
At a conference on UFOs, Sarah gets a clue that puts her on the trail of the three dots. Riley has second thoughts about her mission.
My comments:
Wow, that was awkward. While most of the plot didn't really interest me that much (mainly that part with the UFOs...) it was still all put together very well. Then there is the two other story threads which are also very interesting and the story comes out on top in the end.
I mean, come on, Sarah follows a lead where she found three UFOs on the cover of a flyer, looking similar to her dots? In general I don't mind the idea that stands behind that (people found "future technology" and since they can't know that they assume it's alien), just they way it's introduced into the show didn't meet my approval (:laugh:). Once that was over with there was one more obvious plot twist to deal with but the rest was fine.
Much more interesting to me was how they introduced Riley's back story (including "her" agenda) with a bang. No more hiding, no more guesses or hints. Kaboom, here is what it is, deal with it. :laugh: :thumbup: That was intercut with interactions between John, Riley and Cameron which re-introduced the theme of jealousy.
Finally there is Ellison who, after initial hesitation, agrees to teach morals and ethics to John Henry. Well, technically we never see him agree, but we see him play chess with the artificial intelligence and discuss related topics.
(click to show/hide)
(only because the, IMO misguided, use of the UFO theme)
Post by: Achim on February 14, 2010, 01:35:14 PM
Post by: Achim on February 14, 2010, 02:36:49 PM
Gravely wounded Sarah is guided by the image of John’s father, Kyle Reese. Weaver moves to protect John Henry.
My comments:
Kyle Reese is back :) ... Sarah uses Kyle for an inner monologue to make herself trust the doctor she took hostage and to overcome the pain. I liked these scenes way more than I expected at first and kept thinking about that it's only her talking to herself and was delighted to see how well they wrote it. As Matthias pointed out before,.. Team Connor is ripped apart. The previous episodes already did the same and also her we see all main characters individually, rarely together; they all have their own story, failing to function properly as a team. While no plot advancements are achieved, this episode portrays nicely how Sarah realizes how alone she is (another reason why she summons Kyle). The subplot with the doctor seems a bit contrived but otherwise works quite alright in the context.
John and Cameron are in the hospital because of Riley
(click to show/hide)
Ellison begins to realize that teaching John Henry may not have been a good choice. On the other hand Weaver and John Henry get closer... I am still not able to guess if Weaver has other motives than the obvious ones :headscratch:
Post by: goodguy on February 14, 2010, 08:56:28 PM
Synopsis: Sarah and Cameron work to save a family on the list with a connection to Derek and Jesse in the future.
My Rating:
After the revelations of 2x10, the show goes off on a tangent for the second time in a row. That's either a pretty ballsy move, the result of the network asking for more self-contained episodes, or padding towards the mid-season finale (2x13). While I like to think it is the first, in reality it is probably a little of all three.
Since I'm rewatching the series, I obviously have more patience for things that maybe considered distractions from the main plot. But I have to say that it didn't bother me on first viewing either. And while the episode has no relation to the main plot, it does relate to the main story by mirroring it: protector and savior, Lauren and her sister, Sarah and John.
I really liked the three time frames. They have done future flashbacks before, and adding another layer to that seems almost like a natural extension. Especially since there is nothing gimmicky about it here, all the flashbacks are very clearly personalized and structured to good effect.
I always found Derek to be an interesting character. We get to know a little more about his suicidal strike (Kyle's disappearance causing him to volunteer for risky missions) and we get to see that moment where he and Jesse meet for the first time. BTW, kudos to the writers for throwing in that "She'll be apples" line (linking to Riley's carrots-and-apples in her first talk with John).
The scenes in the Fields cabin had an almost Buffy-esque feeling in the way they pushed the hilarious elements while maintaining both drama and suspense. I especially liked how certain bits trickled from one conversation to another (cyborgs, not robots; closer doesn't mean happy) and that Lauren was the one who knew all the little family secrets (the gun, David's shady business, Anne's affair).
All in all that was another great episode, very well told and very engaging. That's not to say there weren't a few missteps, though. They went for some of the more obvious tearjerker and clichéd moments and tied it all up a little to neatly, even if the final shot again was great as Derek finds that Lauren is gone and has left behind the necklace he considered a target.
Another thing that bugged me is that first they to spoil the suspense by giving certain information "accidentally" too early (who is the terminator after...?) just to give us an entire different solution later; it felt cheap.
Erm, no. At that point, we know (from the now-frame) that Lauren's father is already dead and that the terminator is still after pregnant Anne and Lauren.
Post by: Achim on February 16, 2010, 09:05:53 AM
They cold have made the "past" segments more suspenseful if they hadn't revealed that so early. Also, there was the scene from the future where they show Lauren giving Derek the injection, therefore making us think it's her the termonator is after and then it turned out the mother. While the switch is cheap, it's nothing new, again it would have made the cabin scenes more exciting if they hadn't revealed a target so early.Another thing that bugged me is that first they to spoil the suspense by giving certain information "accidentally" too early (who is the terminator after...?) just to give us an entire different solution later; it felt cheap.
Erm, no. At that point, we know (from the now-frame) that Lauren's father is already dead and that the terminator is still after pregnant Anne and Lauren.
Post by: goodguy on February 18, 2010, 02:42:37 AM
Synopsis: At a conference on UFOs, Sarah gets a clue that puts her on the trail of the three dots. Riley has second thoughts about her mission.
My Rating:
And thus begins Sarah's quest into the desert. Her first guide is a woman who was a man, whose transformation was caused by circumstances out of his control, but who embraced them to free himself. His transformation is both a mirror and a question to Sarah. Beautifully done. And even if a little too on the nose, I really liked the small flashes of Waitress Sarah and Warrior Sarah.
But what I loved most about this episode was Sarah driving towards the desert warehouse while listening to Eileen/Alan's recording. Wonderfully shot (the sprinklers hitting the car window, just one example), with an excellent score, vaguely foreboding something inevitable, and with the slightly strange tone of Eileen's voice, culminating in that chuckled "I'm a waitress" as Sarah packs the explosives. That was breathtaking.
As Achim noted, the back-story of Riley and Jesse was handled almost en passant. A tunnel scene, a hotel room scene, a car scene - that's it. Elliptical story telling at its finest, fleshing out the characters and their relation with a few words and gestures. And now here she is, out of her depth. Jesse slaps her around, Cameron is on to her, paradise doesn't look so bright anymore.
Ellison didn't sleep after Weaver showed him the monster in the basement. But he still carries on, talks to John Henry about God's creation and human life being sacred. Yet what's left behind on Sarah's path seems to be only death.
"Checkmate. I win. Would you like to play again?" That's the Terminator plot in a nutshell.
So the episode ends with two major characters bleeding to death - and an UFO? Those who watched the original airing had to wait two months for the next episode. Bummer.
Post by: Achim on February 18, 2010, 04:01:14 AM
So the episode ends with two major characters bleeding to death - and an UFO? Those who watched the original airing had to wait two months for the next episode. Bummer.You think people really believed an UFO arrived there....? That thought didn't cross my mind for a second.
Post by: goodguy on February 18, 2010, 04:27:39 AM
You think people really believed an UFO arrived there....? That thought didn't cross my mind for a second.
Well, not of the alien variety. But it wasn't clear if Sarah was haluzinating or if it was real.
BTW, sorry for the slow progress. I will most likely catch up to 2x14 tomorrow.
Post by: Achim on February 18, 2010, 10:52:56 AM
Well, not of the alien variety. But it wasn't clear if Sarah was haluzinating or if it was real.Let's say, I hope I was right on my assumption that it was a trick of her mind.
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BTW, sorry for the slow progress. I will most likely catch up to 2x14 tomorrow.No worries. I have a week off because of the Lunar New year and happily watch other stuff (like my all-in-one-day Lord of the Rings marathon).
Post by: Najemikon on February 18, 2010, 12:36:21 PM
QuoteBTW, sorry for the slow progress. I will most likely catch up to 2x14 tomorrow.No worries. I have a week off because of the Lunar New year and happily watch other stuff (like my all-in-one-day Lord of the Rings marathon).
LoTR? One day? Good grief, man! :o 12 hours of viewing... whoa!
Post by: Achim on February 18, 2010, 04:45:39 PM
LoTR? One day? Good grief, man! :o 12 hours of viewing... whoa!It was quite good actually. I got up "early" and watched the first one with a bit of breakfast at the start, second one involved lunch and third one dinner :laugh: Basically it was 9-22 :shrug: Since it's 6 DVDs the breaks came very naturally.
Especially to someone like me this has some sort of advantages, like I can't forget easily what happened in the previous film, allowing for noticing a lot of connections where story carried over that I may have missed before (I never read the book and seeing the films a year apart is not helpful either).
Post by: goodguy on February 19, 2010, 05:28:52 AM
Synopsis: Gravely wounded Sarah is guided by the image of John's father, Kyle Reese. Weaver moves to protect John Henry.
My Rating:
-And Sarah's desert quest continues with Kyle Reese taking over as her guiding spirit. There is of course the immediate task of survival, but the episode is called "The Good Wound" for a reason. It is one that makes you stop, consider your life choices, as Derek said in 2x05 Goodbye to All That.
Sarah thinks she cannot stop, but Kyle responds that she is not one of them. Them being the machines of course. I was reminded of that scene in 2x12 Alpine Fields, where Lauren's mother says to Derek "Your from the future, like them." And Derek, whose self-hating side we already saw when talking to Fisher in 2x09 Complications, just agrees "Yeah. Like them."
It is Sarah's more vulnerable side that gains her the help of the doctor, Felicia. I didn't mind the abusive angle they played with Felicia, but the ending with the sheriff was a misstep. I guess the writers (or the network) wanted some resolution to that storyline, but not only was it severely overdone, it also took away from that final moment between Sarah and Felicia, where Sarah takes it all back (Was anything you said the truth? - I got shot.)
But otherwise the scenes with Sarah and Kyle where beautiful done, drawing back to small pieces of the T1 dialogue and a touching reversal of a T1 scene, when Kyle looks at the many wounds on Sarah's body.
Dillahunt as John Henry continues to be hilarious and creepy. Ellison has to face some follow-up questions for all his talk about God. John Henry has caught onto Weaver's secret and lets her know in a complete non sequitur that was brilliantly done. Weaver channels Sarah via Bryan Adams (Everything I do, I do for you). Then she goes on a rampage that, like in the power plant case, achieves something what Sarah was set out to do.
After Riley is removed from the hospital from Jesse we get to see that she has way more attachment to Jesse than John, something Jesse rather dislikes. Are we still missing pieces in the puzzle about them?
I think it is a handler and informal operative thing. Riley's attachment to Jesse is understandable, and Jesse deliberately plays it, much like an abusive relationship. She wants Riley to be close to John, but she also wants to maintain the hold she has on her.
BTW, Achim, I have also watched 2x15 and 2x16 now and I will post comments later.
Post by: goodguy on February 19, 2010, 10:25:43 AM
Synopsis: The Connors investigate the company town connected to the destroyed factory and find something startling. Weaver searches for a survivor of the explosion.
My Rating:
Quote from: Josh Friedman about this episode:
If you enjoy watching Weaver slaughter thirty people in one episode you’re obligated to go to their funeral in the next.
While I can understand that from both a conceptual and ethical viewpoint, this episode was a bit of a let down after the previous strong run. I would go as far as saying it is the weakest episode of the season.
I liked that Sarah had to face the wife of the guy she shot at the warehouse, but the girl with the obnoxious boyfriend was merly a plot point, not very engaging. Too much X-Files stuff, dead cows and all. The basement confrontation of our unhappy terrorists with the "sleepwalking" townspeople was a nice note, but felt forced all the same.
It is good that Sarah's hunch was proven right, but on first viewing I was a bit worried about the drone thing. Without spoiling anything, let me just say that the worry was unwarranted. The guy Weaver sent to investigate is dead and at least one person and a piece of technology from the warehouse is still around.
A slightly above average episode that clarified a few things and set some plot points in motion, but was rather unsatisfying as far as the characters were concerned.
Post by: goodguy on February 19, 2010, 10:27:34 AM
Synopsis: Night terrors at the sleep clinic: Sarah's disrupted sleep patterns lead to a shocking discovery.
My Rating:
Starting with Sarah's VO, there are a lot of clues in this episode as to what is real and what isn't, but the editing constantly enforces a different view. It is easy to dismiss this as a cheap twist, but we are meant to see this with Sarah's eyes and she doesn't know for a long time. Also, the episode loses none of its impact upon rewatching; it almost requires it to fully appreciate the subtleties. Amazing work that ends the string of Sarah-centric episodes on a high note.
With this view, I'm in the minority. Tom and DJ Doena have already expressed their dislike of this particular arc on this forum, although I'm glad that Achim has enjoyed the first half of it. I'm curious whether that enjoyment continues or if he joins the rank of the naysayers.
For an action show about killer robots from the future, continuing the Sarah psychogram after a two-month break certainly was a risky thing to do. IIRC, the show lost a lot of viewers at that time, but I'm certainly thankful they sticked with it, even if it meant cancellation. Don't get me wrong, I like the robot action as much as the next guy and I enjoy a good scifi-arc, but ultimately that's all secondary to me.
Anyway.
Sarah's journey into the desert started with a story about transformation and in a way that's what happened to her, for better or worse. She joins the rank of the killers, but she does it consciously, and that long moment where she pulls the trigger will haunt her forever. Maybe she would rather die herself, as she has said repeatedly during the last episodes. But she would die only if it could save John, not because she is tired of the endless fight, not because of the fears and the self-doubt she has. Like Riley, she makes her wrist bleed, but it is an action of strength and endurance, not of giving up.
In those clinic dreams her fears play out, both the little stuff and the ultimate one of seeing John getting killed and her to die in vain, unable to prevent it. That is the one thing that can never happen, that is the one thing that focuses her; dreams are just dreams and fears are just fears, she is strong enough to deal with them.
Post by: Achim on February 20, 2010, 08:36:44 AM
It is Sarah's more vulnerable side that gains her the help of the doctor, Felicia. I didn't mind the abusive angle they played with Felicia, but the ending with the sheriff was a misstep. I guess the writers (or the network) wanted some resolution to that storyline, but not only was it severely overdone, it also took away from that final moment between Sarah and Felicia, where Sarah takes it all back (Was anything you said the truth? - I got shot.)Reading your comments made me realize just how ambiguous Sarah's line actually is and it's up to Felicia to pick her interpretation (ultimately leading to the intended the result, obviously). On the one hand "I got shot" could say, that she was wounded and hurt and everything said was just to please the doctor and make her continue. On the other hand, it could mean that she didn't lie, as having a near-death experience would make lying pointless.
Quote
BTW, Achim, I have also watched 2x15 and 2x16 now and I will post comments later.Good, now you are two ahead. I will start soon with the next disc and then go rather quickly through those five episodes, putting me one or two ahead when I am done with that.
EDIT:
BTW, I will leave for a short trip 95 days) on next Saturday and am now contemplating whether I should try to finish off entirely before that or leave the last disc (3 episodes) for after my return (which would just give me enough time before another shirt trip (3 days) to Hong Kong...
Post by: goodguy on February 20, 2010, 11:16:52 AM
BTW, I will leave for a short trip 95 days)
Well, see you again in May then. ;)
on next Saturday and am now contemplating whether I should try to finish off entirely before that or leave the last disc (3 episodes) for after my return (which would just give me enough time before another shirt trip (3 days) to Hong Kong...
I may be able to match you in completing the series during the next week, but I cannot guarantee it. There are currently just too many things affecting my free time that are outside of my control.
Post by: Achim on February 20, 2010, 12:43:14 PM
:laugh:BTW, I will leave for a short trip 95 days)
Well, see you again in May then. ;)
Got me there.
Hit the "9" key before the Shift, it seems... While I am sure it was clear: it's unfortunately 5 days only. Then again, 95 days of vacation does actually sound like "too much" :hmmmm:
Post by: Achim on February 21, 2010, 06:43:49 AM
The Connors investigate the company town connected to the destroyed factory and find something startling. Weaver searches for a survivor of the explosion.
My comments:
The fist half of the show had me bored to tears; too much funeral, too little plot. Around mid-point however the story picks up pace (Cameron finds that the girl John's been talking to is lying, Sarah finds an "evil underground lair"). At the end our party of four realizes that Skynet is way ahead of what they could have possibly imagined, leaving me the viewer quite amazed about that as well. I'll agree with Matthias' review (http://) that there is a (relatively) a lot of plot covered and some questions answered, but all that got ultimately in the way of the character development (in an unhealthily unbalanced fashion, I mean).
There is however two lovely bits in there regarding Weaver. The first one when she is having a conversation with Ellison and she gets a little upset because he uncovers her lack of sensibility on the anniversary of "her husband's" death (since it shows her she is is not maintaining a good cover). The even better one is when she interacts with "her daughter", trying to bond and creating an emotional connection. This is something she obviously lacks ability and is therefore an important issue to her. I found the exchange regarding her daughter sitting on her lap a very nice touch!
(because boring us for half of the show)
Post by: goodguy on February 21, 2010, 07:50:14 AM
There is however two lovely bits in there regarding Weaver.
I agree. Recovering from her lapse with "Would you excuse me. I'm feeling emotional." was both hilarious and a believable thing for her to do as far as Ellison is concerned. And then she repeats Ellison's words about his father verbatim to Savannah. She tries very hard, but doesn't get it right (reminded me of the "Cow's blood" comment to the therapist).
Post by: Achim on February 21, 2010, 09:52:56 AM
Night terrors at the sleep clinic: Sarah’s disrupted sleep patterns lead to a shocking discovery.
My Comments:
I had to think about the below rating for quite a while. I did not enjoy as much it while watching, only in retrospect do I see the possibility for this episode to redeem itself in the future :headscratch: I was originally going to rate this episode low for the stupidity of putting Sarah by this oh-so-big coincidence into the sleep clinic where she discovers that it's all a Skynet scheme.
So, yeah, I guess there are clues regarding the twist at the end, we just willingly ignore them and go for the obvious. I suppose Dana going up in flames should have given me the wake up call, but still, how could we discover the truth here when the guard was so clearly set up to be dead during the two previous episodes. It feels like a cheat to me. Look he's dead; no he's not. Doh.
I guess seeing this on a second viewing in the future may have the redeeming features fully unfold, but for now it feels like a lazy filler. I may be missing it through the disappointment right now, but what did we gain with this episode? Only that Weaver is now aware of Sarah getting close and wants her dead...? Too little.
Post by: Achim on February 21, 2010, 10:03:27 AM
With this view, I'm in the minority. Tom and DJ Doena have already expressed their dislike of this particular arc on this forum, although I'm glad that Achim has enjoyed the first half of it. I'm curious whether that enjoyment continues or if he joins the rank of the naysayers.I hadn't read your post until after I wrote mine. So, now it's clear that I am a naysayer ;) (I might want to look up Karsten's thread and add his ratings to the first post.) At least to the last part of this arc; as opposed to at least Tom, who apparently didn't like this triple set of episodes about Sarah at all.
I do however, like you hint at in your review, the potential for this episode to be much better on a second viewing. I already laid out that I felt cheated in my comments.
Quote
For an action show about killer robots from the future, continuing the Sarah psychogram after a two-month break certainly was a risky thing to do. IIRC, the show lost a lot of viewers at that time, but I'm certainly thankful they sticked with it, even if it meant cancellation. Don't get me wrong, I like the robot action as much as the next guy and I enjoy a good scifi-arc, but ultimately that's all secondary to me.I can clearly see why they might have lost viewers after this episode. This episode does clearly not work as the opener after a break. maybe somewhere in the middle of the second run it may have been received better, but I would guess may viewer felt just like me.
Post by: goodguy on February 21, 2010, 10:38:25 AM
This episode does clearly not work as the opener after a break.
Just to clarify: The mid-season finale was 2x13 Earthlings Welcome Here. The opener after the 2-month break was 2x14 The Good Wound.
... but what did we gain with this episode?
I think I answered that a little in my comments on the episode.
Only that Weaver is now aware of Sarah getting close and wants her dead...?
Not really a spoiler, just pointing out some things established so far:
(click to show/hide)
EDIT
Found another error in the ratings table: My rating for 2x08 was
Post by: Achim on February 21, 2010, 12:22:02 PM
Just to clarify: The mid-season finale was 2x13 Earthlings Welcome Here. The opener after the 2-month break was 2x14 The Good Wound.:bag:
Lost track...
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I think I answered that a little in my comments on the episode.Well, yeah, of course we gain lots of insights into Sarah's mind, but the plot is not forwarded in any shape or form. I missed Ellison, Weaver,...
Quote
The guard said something about "her" (the person giving him commands) wanting "her" (Sarah) dead. I assumed at the time that it would be too much of a coincidence if another group would have a female leader as well.Only that Weaver is now aware of Sarah getting close and wants her dead...?
Not really a spoiler, just pointing out some things established so far:(click to show/hide)
On the other hand you are right. The guy Weaver sent was shot by that second guard (the one whose fake wake we've seen). Would indeed be weird if Weaver would command all of them.
Post by: Achim on February 21, 2010, 12:34:36 PM
Riley’s mission is in jeopardy when she fears Cameron has discovered her secret. Cameron confesses to John that her glitch has returned.
My comments:
While Derek is out trying to get close (kill...? didn't quite catch whether he just wanted to talk or if he was out to kill) to a guy related to the previous episodes lead towards Skynet the Connor household is shaken up. john Sarah and Cameron find out that something is up with Riley. That something is giving them trouble real quick and the three seem to have a "battle of the minds" how to deal with it. I found the way the episode inched forwards towards it's actual reveal (Jesse's actual plans for Riley) very exciting and there were several nice scenes between various characters; both quiet (John and Cameron) as well as confrontational (John and Sarah) moments.
Post by: goodguy on February 21, 2010, 01:27:22 PM
The guard said something about "her" (the person giving him commands) wanting "her" (Sarah) dead. I assumed at the time that it would be too much of a coincidence if another group would have a female leader as well.
The gender of the person the guard (Winston) talks to is never revealed. All the "her" and "she" only refer to Sarah. Winston also assumes that Sarah blew up the facility.
WINSTON (Talking on cell phone):
It's her son. He's the one who helped her blow up the facility. He's the one we want. (Pause)
We'll give him a few more hours to show up. (Pause)
I don't know. Maybe three. (Pause)
She gave me a few problems. Nothing I couldn't handle. (Pause)
Yeah. I guess we don't need her anymore. (Pause)
No. He can trace her cell phone to this location even without her alive. Makes no difference to me. (Pause)
It's not a problem. I'll take care of it right now. (Ends the phone call)
Hell, it's what she wants.
... but the plot is not forwarded in any shape or form.
All that obsession over the plot makes you overlook not only the exciting stuff that happens, but also the clues that are actually related to the plot. ;)
Post by: Achim on February 22, 2010, 05:36:15 AM
WINSTON (Talking on cell phone):Thanks for posting that, don't have to find it myself :) I had assumed that the last line referred to the person giving the command to kill Sarah. Reading it out now it could as well mean that he thinks Sarah is suicidal in a way and wants to die anyway... :hmmmm:
It's her son. He's the one who helped her blow up the facility. He's the one we want. (Pause)
We'll give him a few more hours to show up. (Pause)
I don't know. Maybe three. (Pause)
She gave me a few problems. Nothing I couldn't handle. (Pause)
Yeah. I guess we don't need her anymore. (Pause)
No. He can trace her cell phone to this location even without her alive. Makes no difference to me. (Pause)
It's not a problem. I'll take care of it right now. (Ends the phone call)
Hell, it's what she wants.
Post by: goodguy on February 22, 2010, 10:53:38 AM
Reading it out now it could as well mean that he thinks Sarah is suicidal in a way and wants to die anyway... :hmmmm:
That's the point (which I also tried to address in my episode comments). There is an almost identical exchange with both Winston in the van and the T-Doctor (Hobson) in the clinic.
SARAH: I won't call him. I'll die first.
WINSTON: Oh, you'd like that. To die. But it's never that easy, is it?
HOBSON: Call to him.
SARAH: I'd die first.
HOBSON: I'm sure you'd like that. To die. It's never that easy.
Post by: Achim on February 22, 2010, 03:02:39 PM
Unrelated, but since I am typing. Today I looked at both sides of the Keep Case cover of this and noticed at first that Cameron can be seen on front and back. Then I realized that she can be seen with Team Connor on the front but with Team Metal on the back :o :hmmmm:
Post by: Achim on February 22, 2010, 03:36:17 PM
Jesse flashes back to a life-altering mission aboard her submarine, the Jimmy Carter. Sarah and John decide it’s time to move.
19. Today Is The Day (Part 2)
Will you join us? Jesse’s sub mission in the future takes a fatal turn that has unforeseen effects on John, Sarah and Derek in the present.
My comments:
Closing Jesse's story arc takes a little longer, so they pack it into a two-parter... Deservedly so, beats having two episodes connected such as these with different tiles. Anyway, after taking some time in the previous episodes to explore the mind and feelings of Sarah the show gets back on track to give us plot. And with only five episodes to wrap things (did they know at this point?) they hit us hard. While we are basically looking at Jesse's story we also get lots of bits with team Connor, not loosing focus of what the show is about.
One plotline is about future Jesse, ultimately explaining her motivation for her present day actions to us. A T-1000 makes an exciting appearance and a nice nod goes to Robert Patrick's performance in T-2. A nice detail about present day Jesse is the way she always sits still in her comfy chair and ever so slightly corrects the standing position of the side-table lamp; this is not explained any further, but maybe there is actually no deeper purpose in this.
Then of course we get the Connors, dealing with Riley's disappearance/death. Suspicions go flying and so John pieces the story together by himself to find the truth. ...and so he does. There is several marvelous moments in this too, such as Sarah's desperate but failing attempt to get close with John (discussion about the hippie town they used to stay at) or John's conversation with Jesse. Sarah has a conversation with Cameron where I got the feeling she was trying to separate Cameron from John (something that wouldn't be without risk) when she puts out there that Future John sent Cameron away from him (when in fact he sent her to himself...).
However, the best bits come once again from the story with Ellison. In Part 1 John Henry helps Savannah to play hide and seek with her mother, but as he adds his own little game to the mix he makes Ellison angry for keeping Savannah's location a secret (thinking she might be in danger). Highly interesting to see Weaver be fascinated (from machine to machine) rather than angry (as a mother) in contrast to Ellison. In Part 2 Ellisons wants to go home for the night and turn John Henry off, who persuades him to stay so he can continue painting little figurines. When Ellison agrees John Henry shocks him by asking "Does this make us friends?"
In overall this was two great episodes with an excellent mixture of character interaction, suspense and excitement.
P.S.: Once again I find the cover synopsis to be irritating. Part 2 gives us the background of Jesse's story, her motivation, but the cover makes it sound like there are changes from her original intent and the something new :shrug:
Post by: goodguy on February 23, 2010, 07:36:19 PM
Post by: Achim on February 24, 2010, 05:03:04 AM
Usually, once I start the last disc I can't stop... I am three episodes in the lead right now.
Since I enjoy our discussions about smaller plot points or the lack of them I am going to wait and watch it after my trip. By that time you should be caught up (a week from today). That way I won't remember too much about the three I am ahead now, but at least we can discuss the last three better.
I have some other stuff I can watch instead...
Post by: goodguy on February 24, 2010, 09:49:12 PM
Synopsis: Riley's mission is in jeopardy when she fears Cameron has discovered her secret. Cameron confesses to John that her glitch has returned.
My Rating:
What am I going to do with you? Cameron and the bird go way back to 2x03 The Mousetrap. The maybe-later of then is now, although Cameron's intentions have changed. She no longer wants to kill the bird; she does so by accident, an involuntary movement of her hand, a glitch.
What am I going to do with you? The bird is a fire hazard and Riley is a threat to John. Yet Cameron doesn't know what she's going to do. She has a glitch that causes her hand to twitch. She has a glitch that causes her not to kill Riley.
Sarah on the other hand. Sarah gets her gun, and for a moment she is ready to go out and kill Riley herself. Are Sarah and Cameron switching places? Sarah doesn't trust John anymore, but Cameron puts her life in John's hand.
Riley did cut her wrist to kill herself. Sarah bit into her wrist to become a killer. Cameron cuts her wrist to avoid killing.
Today is the day. Today is the day where they trust each other or not. Back in S1, Charlie and Ellison were at this point. They almost talked with each other, but then they didn't. Now it's John and Riley.
Once upon a time, Derek and his brother Kyle ate fruit from an apple tree. But the garden was lost, burnt away on Judgment Day. Now Derek is here with Jesse, shooting at apples. The sight is off, they say when they miss. A glitch. Do they consider that it might be there view that is off instead?
"I rescued you from hell and I took you to paradise," Jesse says to Riley for the second time. "I gave you a purpose. I made you matter." It sounds like she believes it, it sounds almost like envy. The fight is brutal. Riley, scared Riley, Riley who almost killed herself, now fights as if it matters. And almost wins. But the sight isn't off this time.
Derek sits alone at the roadside as his target passes by. John leaves the shed and finds another dead bird.
It is hard to pick one, but this is probably my favorite episode. It is less high-concept than some others, it is almost deceptively simple. Every scene (with the exception of the CFS woman visit) is a two-person conversation, slowly moving towards the climax.
The dialogue-writing is outstanding and the episode is a key example of what makes TSCC so special. The characters talk in clipped sentences, language reduced to the bare minimum, to the simplest of phrases. The silence in-between is as important as the spoken words. It is essential to the tone, to the atmosphere of the series. There is a lot of repetition with slight variations, creating an almost poetic rhythm. But these style elements also appear on a structural level. Since the core story of Terminator is exactly that, a time loop of repetition and variation, that stylistic choice is quite brilliant.
Considering that the episode is essentially a series of conversations and a big fight, it is once again noteworthy how gorgeous and cinematic it looks. That hallway, where Riley left the bleach box for Sarah. That talk between John and Riley, with Sarah and Cameron on the sidelines (btw, remember that similar sequence of shots in 2x05 Goodbye to All That?), that final low-angle shot as John leaves the shed, etc.
Oh, and a few words about the plot. Upon first viewing, I didn't guess Jesse's endgame until she turned up the heat on Riley and the Connors in this episode. I was never really convinced that her idea of setting John up with a girlfriend would estrange him from Cameron, but it didn't occur to me what the logical consequence was. Looking back, the Riley storyline was really well developed. Great stuff. And more to come in the final Jesse chapters.
Post by: Achim on February 25, 2010, 05:59:05 AM
I agree that is definitely one of the best episodes.
Post by: goodguy on February 25, 2010, 02:51:31 PM
Post by: addicted2dvd on March 04, 2010, 06:27:04 PM
Post by: Achim on March 05, 2010, 05:49:10 AM
I am afraid to read this thread as I never seen season 2 yet (just the first 1 or 2 episodes of the season)... but my set is arriving later today. Looks like you all are pretty much done with the season? Think I should just tack my reviews onto the thread as well? Or you think it would be better for me to do my own separately?I certainly don't mind if you add them here, but since mine and Matthias' and my reviews are almost in sync and yours won't, but that's not entirely important and has been done like that in other threads. Then again, Matthias still has 5 and I have 3 more to do, at your speed you'll finish before us :laugh:
I could also link to your thread (similar to what I did for Tom) and then just add your ratings to the first post. Up to you :)
Post by: goodguy on March 05, 2010, 06:55:02 AM
Then again, Matthias still has 5 and I have 3 more to do, at your speed you'll finish before us :laugh:
:laugh:
Actually, I finished the series last weekend, but somehow couldn't muster up the energy to write reviews. I will try to rectify this within the next days.
:training:
Post by: Achim on March 05, 2010, 08:06:29 AM
I might be watching the last disc tonight, and then again I might not... In the latter case I'll get to it next week.
Post by: Achim on March 05, 2010, 01:33:22 PM
Fearing for his life, Sarah stashes John in a safe house, away from Derek and Cameron. John Henry realizes he is not alone.
My Comments:
With the previous episode having wrapped up some of the story arcs this one felt almost like a little reboot; rather weird for the third to last episode. The first half half is spent to re-establish characters in their current state and setting up everyone's position. Sarah abandons Cameron and Derek, feeling they are not safe for John, and wants to hook up john with Charlie instead. Derek and Cameron realize that they have been set loose and therefore have to bond in order to get back on track. The previously hinted at third party makes itself known to John Henry and has Weaver and Ellison nervous. But then thinks kick into gear and suspense and action ensues as the noose tightens around John and Sarah (separately) and Cameron and Derek are attacked.
this reboot just before the end is a bit odd, but I assume this last set of three episodes will work as a tight trilogy of sorts, wrapping up most remaining story lines. The gap between Sarah and John is than it ever was which makes the separation from Cameron and Derek feel all the more dangerous. Sarah again keeps too many secrets from John, trying to protect him yet driving him away from her. The ending is just like it should be for the opening of the closing trilogy, with loose ends and cliffhangers all around.
Post by: Achim on March 05, 2010, 02:33:45 PM
When John attempts to rescue Kaliba’s latest target, he finds himself closing in on Weaver, but at what cost?
My Comments:
In continuation of the previous episode things continue to go down the drain for Team Connor. Slowly but steadily Connor's and Weaver's path are getting closer, with the third party lingering nearby.
The episode is nicely bookended, starting at the same place as it begins, bringing two brothers as close as they can possibly be. We then come to a very nicely set up scene, where terminators close in on John Henry's friend Savannah, with him anxiously trying to help her out by means of the home security camera system and talking to her on the phone. He gets almost emotional throughout the scene, yet is immensely curious about the other machines he sees. Weaver is almost letting her guard down with Ellison when she points out to him that she cares more about his well being than of her "daughter". Another scene I strongly enjoyed was when John discovers who Savannah is, resp. who her friend is.
As with most trilogies, the middle part continues on the path the first one set and has to hold back for the grand finale (at least I hope that's what's going on here).
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Post by: Achim on March 05, 2010, 03:37:34 PM
The Connors come face-to-face with Weaver in a confrontation that shakes John to the core and changes his fate forever.
My Comments:
I didn't see any of this coming. Some of it was hinted at, probably more than once. Also a big surprise was how little action there was. I enjoyed every second of this episode (except for the very last one, actually), a perfect blend of character moments, emotion, action, funny moments.
An excellent finish, which ends the series properly and makes good sense; although it had me think to get most details of it. ...I obviously struggle to write about this one as I feel anything could be a spoiler and all of it deserves to be experienced fresh when viewed for the first time. (Yes, we spoiled most other episodes, but somehow for this one it feels different.)
Post by: Tom on March 05, 2010, 05:41:14 PM
I enjoyed every second of this episode (except for the very last one, actually)
What was the last second again? And why didn't you enjoy it?
Post by: Achim on March 05, 2010, 07:52:27 PM
I enjoyed every second of this episode (except for the very last one, actually)
What was the last second again? And why didn't you enjoy it?
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Post by: Tom on March 05, 2010, 08:05:32 PM
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For some reason I do not recall that.
Post by: goodguy on March 05, 2010, 09:42:59 PM
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It was a bit on the sappy side, but I'm comfortable with giving them some artistic license without getting to hung up on the technicalities.
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I don't recall exactly when I started to guessing it; I think I was pretty sure around the John Henry history talk with Ellison in the elevator. But there were a lot of other little things that pointed into that direction early on.
Post by: Achim on March 06, 2010, 09:37:51 AM
Unrelated, but since I am typing. Today I looked at both sides of the Keep Case cover of this and noticed at first that Cameron can be seen on front and back. Then I realized that she can be seen with Team Connor on the front but with Team Metal on the back :o :hmmmm:I just remembered having made the above statement and wanted to confirm how much sense the covers actually make, after the last episode. :thumbup: Good stuff.
I don't recall exactly when I started to guessing it; I think I was pretty sure around the John Henry history talk with Ellison in the elevator. But there were a lot of other little things that pointed into that direction early on.Looking back, there was indeed several instances in the last two episodes that pointed towards that. So while the actual reveal still came somewhat surprising, I was able to go with it immediately. I guess re-watching the entire show in the future will reveal many more earlier on.
Post by: Achim on March 14, 2010, 04:54:45 AM
Post by: goodguy on March 15, 2010, 08:31:46 PM
Matthias, are you still posting the last few reviews? If not, maybe at least post your ratings so I can add them to the first post in the thread?
:bag: Probably not, so here are my ratings:
| 2x18 Today Is The Day Part 1 | |
| 2x19 Today Is The Day Part 2 | |
| 2x20 To the Lighthouse | |
| 2x21 Adam Raised a Cain | - |
| 2x22 Born to Run | - |
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An excellent finish, which ends the series properly and makes good sense;
It does all come together nicely (and see, Sarah's dreams make sense now) and works well within the general themes of the story. As an ending it is great; as starting point for a new season I'm not so sure. The cancellation happened after the season was aired completely, btw. Josh Friedman himself hasn't said anything about the S3 storylines, but Thomas Dekker has dropped various hints:
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Post by: Achim on March 16, 2010, 05:18:51 AM
I actually feel it's good that they stopped after season 2. I think that continuing the stroy lines after this ending would be rather tough to pull off and some of the stuff Dekker apparently said confirms that it's possibly just more of the same, but maybe cheesier at that. But then, we may never know.
Post by: goodguy on March 16, 2010, 06:40:26 AM
If you mean the "dream" sequence where she saw the hunter killer, then yes, that made more sense then I initially expected.
No I meant the dreams you didn't like in 2x09 Complications, especially the first one with the cacti.
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Post by: Achim on March 17, 2010, 05:24:30 AM
Seriously, great observation! I would not have been able to connect those dots. :bag: